Ok. I just don't see it as replacement theology. The Mssiah wad foretold to come, he came, not all Jews believed, those that did became the nucleus of the next phase or continuation of God's plan for Israel and then those of the nation would be grafted in. Not a replacement, but a continuation. Remember, Paul does say that the nation of Israel will not continue blind forever. Just until the fullness of the nation's are brought in, then all Israel( literal Israel) will be saved. But your point is well taken ,thank you.
Chris Tann
JoinedPosts by Chris Tann
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December 1,2014 watchtower saying buying house is bad
by hoser inpage 15.
"take for example a christian couple in asia.
in their younger years, they admired those who could afford to own a house.
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Chris Tann
Yes, we know that buying or building a house is not wrong. As Jesus said, it is the " not taking any note" that is dangerous. This couple obviously did not considered the cost and it caused them harm. One can have a house without it being a burden and still be a faithful active Christian. Sure some may wrongfully and self righteously condemn you for buying a house, but they sure don't say anything when they want to have field service meetings in your spacious house every week.
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Chris Tann
I agree that Paul's writings on Christ are different. Sometimes I don't know if he believes in a physical Jesus or spiritual Jesus. Never the less, the points I was making about identifying the 144,000 using what Paul wrote in Romans has nothing to do with his theology of the Messiah. He accurately interprets accounts of a future remnant using the Hebrew writings and applies it to Jewish believers of his time. Whether or not they believe in his theology or not at that instance he does not specify.
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Chris Tann
Jews became followers of Christ Jesus before Paul was converted. Exam: the 120 in the upper room on Pentecost and the many Priest who became believers.
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Chris Tann
Funny Phizzy. It could still be symbolic or a certain selection of Jews before a certain time or special event.
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Chris Tann
I thought there must be a clue in revelation that would help one identify who the 144,000 really are. I noticed in Revelation 14:4 that they are called first fruits to God and the lamb. So I looked up all the places in the Greek scriptures where the word first fruits are, and found only five references to that word. Four of those five have nothing to do with Revelations first fruits. The one reference that does is found at Romans 11:16.
Here, in chapter eleven, Paul is asking(vs.1) if God has rejected his people; he answers NO!. He then explains how this is possible by referring to the account of Elijah, telling God that all the prophets have been killed and that he is very concerned being the only one left.God reassures Elijah that he has left 7,000 men over for himself (vs.4). Paul then,in verse 5 ,applies this to his time saying: "In this way, therefore,at the present season also a remnant has turned up according to a choosing due to undeserved kindness". Paul,of course is speaking of a remnant of Jews who have accepted Jesus as the Christ; hence the first Jewish Christians of the first century.
In verse 4 Paul wishes to incite those who are his own flesh (Israelites) to jealousy and save some. He then relates that if the part of Israel taken as FIRST FRUITS (The first Jewish Christians, ie. the remnant of verse 5) is holy, the lump (the whole nation of Israel) is also holy. This harmonizes with the description of the 144,000 in Revlation. Revlation 7 says they are from the tribes of the sons of Israel. Also in chapter 14 verse 4,if women is symbolic of pagan worship, this would make sense, for the Jews who became Christians were always apart of true worship,unlike those of the nation's, who became Christians, were once pagan worshipers. Thus these Jewish Christian first fruits " never defiled themselves with women".
The prophecies in the Hebrew scriptures, that refer to the time of Christ mentions several times that there would be a remnant. Now if the number 144,000 is symbolic or literal I'm not sure,nor am I 100% sure of this understanding of 144,000 is correct. To me, though it is more scriptural and makes more sense than the Witnesses explanation. Therefore I lean toward the understanding that the 144,000 were the first Jewish Christians of the first century before the fall of Jerusalem in 70c.e..
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1914 or 1934 ?
by Chris Tann ini have thoroughly researched the watchtower doctrine of 1914, and am convinced it is neither biblically or historically correct.
but every now and then i wonder how ironic it is that world war 1 did start in that year, also pestilence and famine perused.
maybe, just maybe the witnesses are correct.
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Chris Tann
Hey Rattigan, can you give me the prophecy of Nathan that you refer to? Thanks. I will look into what you are saying and get back to you after I'm done.
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1914 or 1934 ?
by Chris Tann ini have thoroughly researched the watchtower doctrine of 1914, and am convinced it is neither biblically or historically correct.
but every now and then i wonder how ironic it is that world war 1 did start in that year, also pestilence and famine perused.
maybe, just maybe the witnesses are correct.
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Chris Tann
Thanks for the correction Ann O Mally. My bad. Good point T D.
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1914 or 1934 ?
by Chris Tann ini have thoroughly researched the watchtower doctrine of 1914, and am convinced it is neither biblically or historically correct.
but every now and then i wonder how ironic it is that world war 1 did start in that year, also pestilence and famine perused.
maybe, just maybe the witnesses are correct.
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Chris Tann
I have thoroughly researched the Watchtower doctrine of 1914, and am convinced it is neither biblically or historically correct. But every now and then I wonder how ironic it is that World War 1 did start in that year, also pestilence and famine perused. Maybe, just Maybe the Witnesses are correct. So with that nagging doubt in my mind I decided to take the Watchtower time prophecy of 2,520 years and apply it to the true historical date when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians; 586/587 b.c.e..
It is a Difference of 20 years from the date Jehovah's Witnesses say Jerusalem fell; 607 b.c.e.. Therefore 2,520 years from 586/87 b.c.e brings us to 1933/34. Did anything of significance happen at that time? YES! Adolf Hitler became chancellor of the German army and a year later dictator. Shortly thereafter his actions caused World War 2 , which was greatly more destructive than World War 1.
Now to be clear, I do not believe in the 2,520 year time prophecy. It is not in the scriptures or in history. Nor am I saying that it is 1933 that Jesus started to rule invisibly in kingdom power. The point Iam making is that the year 1933 and 34 is just as significant, if not more,as 1914. Especially if Witnesses consider that it was in World War 2 when Jehovah's Witnesses were extremely persecuted in Nazi camps.
You see, many Witnesses say that when Satan was expelled from heaven he started the first World war. Well, one can make the argument that if we apply their same time prophecy to the date that all the historical data gives as to when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians(586/87), that this is when Satan was cast out and he directed Hitler by making him chancellor ,giving him the power to start World War 2.
Conclusion: 1914 is not such a unique fingerprint for Christ coming into power and for the sign of the last days to begin.